Ernest Graves
Q:
Would it be accurate to say that some of the interest in the use of nuclear demolitions
was, in part, an effort to continue military testing under some sort of a guise?
A:
There is no question that the civilian scientists at Livermore conceived of the Plowshare
program as a means to assure testing. That unfolded even more as we got along further.
Kennedy did negotiate the limited test ban treaty, which prevented testing in the
atmosphere and also prevented testing underground if radioactivity crossed the border
of the country that did the testing.
That was the first major setback for the whole concept of excavation. It didn't kill it
because the excavation people argued that they could make the devices so clean that
detectable amounts of radioactivity would not cross the border.
This was really stretching credibility. But because of the tie-in with the Panama Canal,
the government took the position that this was attainable. I think if you stood back, and
I certainly wasn't kidding myself in the midst of this, you had to take the view that the
project in Panama could not have been done under the terms of the treaty.
What we argued was that if the technology progressed and these devices were made
cleaner and cleaner--in other words, less and less fission and more and more
thermonuclear, which does not have the residual radioactivity--then you could
negotiate a protocol to the treaty which would allow certain types of peaceful projects.
In fact, I think if you look at the record, you will find that the Soviet Union's peaceful
nuclear explosive program in the aggregate has been larger and perhaps more successful
than the one the U.S. pursued.
Q:
For some reasons that are obvious, I guess.
A:
They have a lot of real estate out there, and they don't have the same public problems
that we have.
But I'm thinking now about the Limited Test Ban Treaty. As I remember, it was ratified
in 1963. That's when I was back at Livermore as the director of the Nuclear Cratering
Group.
We had to do a lot of work to reorganize our effort so that it was consistent with that
treaty. But they did conduct some cratering shots after the treaty was signed. They
didn't have as much trouble with venting from those shots as they did from some
"contained" shots that leaked.
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